6 Keys to a Staff Culture Worth Staying For | Ep 45

If you want help building a healthy staff culture people want to be a part of for the long haul, learn more about the Ready Set Grow Mastermind: https://www.readysetgrowchurch.com/mastermind

Grab the A-Team Workshop replay here: https://www.readysetgrowchurch.com/the-a-team-workshop

You poured your heart into someone... and they left anyway.

Maybe it wasn't a culture problem. Maybe it was simply what God was calling them to next.

Either way, it's worth asking: is your staff culture healthy enough — attractive enough — that your team could stay for the long haul, if that's what the Lord calls them to do?

This conversation breaks down six specific, practical keys to building that kind of culture — one that's healthy enough for the right people to stay and grow together, for as long as God has them there.

In this episode:

• Why clear expectations are the foundation of a healthy team culture
• How to give feedback that celebrates wins instead of only flagging problems
• Why valuing your team's input changes how they see themselves — and their work
• What a sustainable schedule actually protects, and it's not just your calendar
• How to value your staff as people and family members, not just producers
• Why fair pay still matters, even when the culture is strong

You can't decide who the Lord calls to stay. But you can build a culture healthy enough that staying is possible when He does.

Transcript

Mastermind Coaching Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey friends, before we jump into today's episode, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while and has been helping you, I'd love for you to take your next step with us. The Ready Set Grow Mastermind is where we go beyond conversations and actually help you put these principles into practice. So every week, think about it. You're going to join pastors from around the world for live coaching, practical tools, and proven systems where you can put this into practice right away. So whether you're trying to break a growth barrier, you're trying to build a stronger team, or create systems that are going to help your church thrive, this mastermind is going to give you the coaching and support to make it happen. And here's one of my favorite parts every pastor who joins a mastermind is actually helping another church that otherwise couldn't afford the coaching. So when you invest in your church, you're also investing in another pastor and another church. So if you're ready to take the next step, go to ready setgrowchurch.com and you can learn more. And let's jump into today's episode.

Welcome to the Show

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hey my friends, welcome to the ReadySet Grow Podcast. I am your host, Mark Brewer. I've got Hunter Wilson, got Scott Wilson, and we are so glad that you're here. By the way, many of you have been letting us know that this is uh becoming just a regular benefit for you and your team. And so, if it is, if this is helping you, we would love for you to like, subscribe, and share with the other people in your life that this could benefit. We have a lot of pastors, and recently we've had pastors asking the question how can I have and build a team where people want to stick around for a long time? And I think some of the pain of leaving, uh, pastors are trying to figure out is this a me problem? Yeah, is this a culture problem?

The Question Every Pastor Asks

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Is it a them problem?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Like, what do we do about that? Yeah, we just went through a season with our coaching uh where we are basically kind of like a sermon series where we talked about building an A team. We have a workshop on that on the website, and we went through a whole stint of, okay, I want to build like an A team. I want to build, I want to walk in the room on a Monday morning and be like, dude, this is like, this is it. Like this is the team we're gonna take over. Like this is this is it. And and then we talked about how do you hire people, like how do you attract the A team? And then maybe there's people on the team that were there that maybe you inherited, or maybe I've been there for uh too long and it's time for them to find their next step, or maybe they feel like the the grace is lifting, they're going somewhere else. You exit people out, enter people in, and then there's the team that you have, and you want it to be this A team. You know what's really painful is when there's people that you poured your heart into and you thought like verbally, we said to each other, like, man, we love you know, dabbing each other up and we're gonna do this forever. We're brothers and we're sisters in Christ, you know, like and then they leave. And and it's hard of not thinking, like you said, it's a it's a me problem of am I just not building like the culture that people want to stay at? Like, am I the problem?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, well, first of all, out of I was at the Oaks. Well, I'm still at the Oaks, so 35 years, and uh Mark, you're the only one that was there from the beginning through to the end. Okay. So that's saying something too. Out of all the people, now, not everybody left with like, I hate this place. Yeah. I mean, some people didn't fit the culture we had, okay? But most, I would say 90%. Well, let me put it this way. My wife, Jenny, you know, your mom, Jenny, uh, says, I'm the most beloved, one of her biggest compliments to me, you're one of the most beloved pastors that people leave. You know, like the people who leave still.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

The reason why she picked that up is because we've all lived in this same area for 40 years. Yep. And so we're out to eat, we're out hanging out and doing stuff, and then over time, there's just always going to be somebody that or like a conference or restaurant or whatever. There's always gonna be somebody that walks out how many times Pastor Scott, oh man, it's good to see you. But somebody that is no longer.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

And like it would be like after they leave, I go, Well, if you love me so much, why'd you leave the church? Or why'd you leave our staff? And we navigated through that pain.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

It's it's it's the funny part about it is oh my gosh, Pastor Scott, you've got to meet my kids. This is Pastor Scott. He's amazing. We love him so much. We love the Oaks. We're not there, of course.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Well, they'll a lot of times give me an update like, hey, you know, we learned how to usher there and now we're the head usher over here. Yeah. Hey, we learned there how to do the nursery. Now I'm the head. It's almost as if they said, You taught us, and now we were sent out as a missionary to help you. Which isn't bad, isn't it incredible?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

That was part of our really our persona. It wasn't about our seating capacity, but our seating capacity.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

And it was the restaurant thing, just quantity-wise, obviously, with uh people in the church, you have that more with people that left the church, like former ex-pastor type thing. But at conferences and stuff, all the time, similar thing of like, uh, kids, you gotta meet Pastor Scott. I used to work for him, whatever. Uh, and and that's what I want to zero in on on this topic is what about people that were on the team that no longer are like, how do you do you try

Where This Conversation Started

SPEAKER_01 5:01

to prevent that?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Or do you try to that's part of here? Let me just tell you the origin of this even question is one of the pastors in our coaching, uh, ready said grow coaching stuff, he called me. His name's Darren. So Pastor Darren called and he goes, Hey, look, I want to have what you and Mark and Hunter have. I want to have what I feel from you guys. You guys love working together. You guys uh you know seem to be healthy and sustain your families and your life. How can I build that on our team? So with that guy, I said, that's a great question. And he says, now I know I want my staff to want to be here. And if they leave, it's because God called them to leave and we're sending them out. That's the only way I want it. Everybody else, I want it to be like, I don't ever want to leave this place. And he said, I know I got to pay them. I get that, but pay doesn't always keep everybody. Yeah, you know, sometimes people I can get that over here and it's easier. So I after I hung up the phone, said, Let me think about it, I'll get back with you. And I wrote down notes. I just started going, why do I think we've created a culture over these years? And I'm not saying we always had it, but there was a moment, just like Pastor Darren, I was saying, I want to be a place that is healthy, strong. People love being here and they're thriving, you know? And so I wrote down

Key 1: Give Crystal-Clear Expectations

SPEAKER_02 6:18

some things. I'll just tell you. Number one, I wrote down clear expectations. What I mean by that is people love to be in a place that they know what's expected of them and it's clear. And it's not like they're shooting in the dark or they're trying to run around going, what does he want? What does pastor want me to do? Uh uh what's my assignment? Am I doing what I'm supposed to do? Like this, you know, they want to have clear expectations. If we're not giving clarity, that's my job as the lead pastor to make sure they have clarity on what I'm expecting them to do. Yeah, it's really good. But then the second thing is they want to know, do I think I'm they're doing good on it? Like here's what I'm expecting. But then if I say, hey, I want you, kids pastor, to make sure the nursery's always clean and and safe and that the kids are are knowing God's good and they and they're loved, you know. But but I never tell them, hey, you're doing a good job, or hey, I see some things you could do better in, then people get demotivated. Like, I don't ever even know, am I winning? They don't ever tell me I'm winning.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Let's do a quick pause on that because what I what I wouldn't want us to do is just go through these principles, and this is what we struggle with too. And I think every great leader struggles with this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. So, what I don't want to do while we're talking and having this conversation is all of our great leaders that are watching this go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. Instead, what I want you to do is pause on each one of these and think, hmm, am I providing a great amount of clarity for the people that are on my team? So, first of all, just stop there. It's kind of like a full stop. Am I providing that? And I want to move past illusion where I think I'm providing that to the what we would call illustration where I know I'm providing that. So then I have to answer, how so? If I am providing that clarity, how so am I providing that clarity?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Let me give you a little metaphor, metaphorical example that we use with even like job descriptions, for example, because one of the things that you can provide clarity on is a job description, which is a great idea in principle, but not really utilized well in execution, right? So we've talked about this before, but what's terrible about a job description is it's a mandatory part of like an onboarding experience, but then it never gets updated again. Nobody ever looks at it.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

You're not using it as something to measure against when someone gets hired.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

What I think about this is uh I remember when Emily and I were getting married eight years ago, Mark, you were facilitating like a host type thing of like a newlywed game for me and Emily. So it's that whole thing of like we're back to back and I'm writing down a little piece of white, uh whiteboard little thing, and she has a whiteboard, whatever. And you would be like, Okay, everybody, we're playing the you know, newlywed game. And what's Emily's favorite color? And I write down like blue and she writes down pink, and then you hold it up and everyone like laughs, like, oh my gosh, y'all are about to get married. Yeah, you don't know you're gonna be able to do it. You don't even know what she and and I think about that all the time of how can you be in this kind of partnership with each other and you don't know like the simplest of things about each other?

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Well, it's basically it's saying like a pastor, you're saying it like a pastor and that kid's pastor. So, what does my pastor want me to do on blah blah blah? And they're holding up the sign, and what they have is different than what the lead pastor has, and they're going, like, how is that happening?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

So there's a gap between what are the expectations? What are the how do I know if I'm winning?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Like if we said like you and your youth pastor right now or kids pastor or whatever, is you hold up a whiteboard, you hold up a whiteboard. I'm gonna give you 10 seconds, write down the top five or top six things that like if you were crushing it in this role, dominating, what are the top six things that I expect out of you? And how many answers do you think would be similar on that whiteboard? That's where I think of when it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

So that's what we should be aiming for, that that happens every time. Yeah. How do you do that? By regularly having a meeting with them to set those expectations and then in a cyclical prepared rhythm, you're meeting again to say, you did good on it or you didn't do good, or report to me why it isn't this,

Key 2: Celebrate Wins and Give Honest Feedback

SPEAKER_02 10:22

but whatever it is. And there's an evaluation.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, and I think if you want more help on that specifically, we we have a tool, 365, that will help you get to that clarity if that's helpful for you.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, and we've recorded an episode about that. So on the second one, on the evaluation, what I think is very natural is assumed celebration, but I need to clarify the things that I think you got wrong. They know they're they know I love them, they know they think I'm great, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Assumed celebration. I'm letting the wins go as if, hey, yeah, you should have done that and you know what you want on it.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

It's the tendency of a pastor to be poor in the celebration of wins and assume like yeah, we we all know that.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

If I haven't told you uh that's anything's bad, then you just can assume it's good. But then when it's bad, I can I need to tell you. And so then the staff member is constantly feeling like all they ever do is tell me what's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Which is why what we we say all the time is the number one question a staff member's thinking about all the time is do you think I'm doing a good job? Because all you do is nitpick about the things I'm doing wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So that's why what we do is cycles and cooldowns where three months they have goals of what they're supposed to do. They are clear on it. And then at the end of it, we have that cool down, that one month time where we're meeting with each person and saying, Okay, how did you do red, yellow, green, and we're telling them, dude, you killed it in these. Yeah. Or man, we need to get better in these, and these are specific years.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

In that evaluation, we are three times a year, not once a year at the end of the year. It's three times a year in April and August and December. We're reviewing the past cycle and then planning for the next cycle.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

And it's not subjective feeling, yeah. It's objective data that we've all agreed on of the goals of what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

This is the standard of excellence for your role. Okay, so we've done clear expectation. Okay, then we've got to celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Celebrate and give feedback. Yep. Those are very important.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

We're not saying avoid the negative, but don't just do only that.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah. But then part of that evaluation is the third thing,

Key 3: Value Your Team's Input

SPEAKER_02 12:26

value their input. So basically it's saying, hey, as we're looking at this, what did you learn in the last three months? You know, regular rhythms of tell me how you feel like we could do better. Yeah. What do you think should be happening? So I always even let them tell me how they think they're doing before I tell them what I think they're doing. Because I want their input. I want to hear what they're saying, how they see it. But then I want to ask them, hey, if we could do better in this, what can we do? What do you need from me to do this? Valuing to listen to them, not that they're supposed to be just sitting there like I'm a general giving them orders.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

So this is the move from uh feeling like, you know, you're the uh You're a cognitive sheen. Yeah, and and this idea that I'm a genius, I'm the leader, I'm a genius, you're a minion. It really, it really begins to change the culture when the people that are living their lives under you feel like they have value to bring to the both of you, when I'm talking to you and I want to hear from you all the time, and you know that, it's because you can sense that I see a big 10 on your head and a big 10 on your head of one to ten, you're the best.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

If I value that way, value that you that way, then I want to listen to you, not just tell you what to do. Somebody who just tells people something to do but doesn't want to hear them really is seeing like a six or a five on their head, like you have value to actually go do an assignment I gave you, but you don't have the intellect or experience or ability or talent to be able to tell me uh how we could do it better.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

But how does that work? Does does that mean that everybody on the team, like, what if I don't want to hear your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Well, I think meaning, let me make sure. You're the leader.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

If I'm their leader on your team, I I they don't they're like very inexperienced. This is their first year.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

So they may not be providing the value that you need either in that category or or because of who they are right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay, because I just got pumped up with that question. Number one, if you just said if they're inexperienced, that doesn't mean I don't see a 10 on their head and I don't value them. In fact, guess what input I care about the most is they have fresh eyes. So I want to hear their input so that I can give them clear understanding or teaching or training, or wow, I I didn't even see that. Okay. But to value them is to listen to their input of even questions. I'm value them as a person. Listen, here's the second thing though. If they've been on the team now for a while and I don't value their input, and that's because I see a six on their head, then understand two things. Number one, my view of them now is limiting their ability to grow. Because if I see them as a six, they can never become an eight. Because they can never, under my leadership, become something better than how I see them. Holy cow, that's so powerful. There are actual people that I have I have told you before. I said, We need I'm about to cry, we need to release them because there's too much damage to the relationship here. And I think they could do more, but they're not gonna be able to do it with me. They can't do it here. They're gonna have to do it somewhere. They had a um a failure, they had something happen, they had to be.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

They had to grow through the city.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

If you're talking about an emotional bank account, there's too many withdrawals on this relationship. If they have a hope of growing, it needs to be under someone else. That is a a mercy grace thing to be able to because it's just not gonna work with me. Got that grace is lifted. But here's the point if you just keep them and you just work them and work them and work them, but you don't value them or value them as a person or as a leader or their input, then you are actually creating a culture that says y'all are all lesser and I'm greater, and and and it does it messes it up.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I I think what's what's interesting too is there's a lot of opportunity that we create inside of the culture for people that are inexperienced to still share what they're thinking about because where else are gonna they gonna learn how to be trained how to think?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

If if you don't provide an outlet for them to do it in mold and shape in an environment that's safe, they're gonna go have to learn something about it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

We see this happen in Jesus' life with the disciples many, many times, where he's asking them questions, they're providing information, and he is redirecting and reframing their answers to help move them forward. But he definitely valued them. And there were times when they frustrated him and he got annoyed, but he is constantly inviting their feedback so that he can discover where the gaps are between his thinking and their thinking.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So you can meet them where they're at to bring them where he is called discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

It reminds me a lot of the you heard it said, but in actuality.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Exactly. Man, that's so powerful, that's exactly right. So I think if you don't value input from them and feedback from them, then you actually have a low perspective or a low view of your team, and that's impacting the culture of it. So you gotta value

Key 4: Build a Sustainable Schedule

SPEAKER_02 17:43

their input. With me? Yeah, so can we go to the next one? Yeah, super. So number four would be a sustainable schedule. So what I mean by that, I've never I tell people, and you you did every time we onboarded people, hey, you will probably the speed at which we work, like how fast we grow, how fast we pivot, how fast we'll change. Hey, we just learned that. Let's implement that. You know, we will move very fast, probably faster than any other place you've ever been if you've been at another church or so forth.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

And just to clarify, when you're saying how fast we grow, that's not necessarily like the the church growth. It's it's how much we help develop and grow, is like we change our perspective and minds a lot because we're thinking every three months, we're evaluating everything we do and saying what should we keep doing?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

What nothing is sacred except God, our relationship with God and people. Everything else gets put on the table as a vehicle to have hold on to accomplish the mission.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

That's it. And we work hard. Yeah. Okay. But we don't let that leak over into places that we do not have a sustainable schedule to have health in our family, health in our life, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, in every way, and we take Sabbath. So that that can sound like, oh man, you guys just work everybody to death. Well, some people could feel like we work them hard, but it's gonna be we don't mess around when it's time to work. And we're fun, we do that, but we work hard, right? Yeah, yeah. But then we do Sabbath, and we have how many times have we at an evaluation called people in and told them, you are not you're not doing Sabbath? Yeah. And they'll go like, but man, I got to get my stuff done. If you can't get your stuff done in this time, we need to talk about it and figure out maybe our expectations. And what I found a lot of times, those people were not trying to work hard to keep up to my expectations. They were working on other expectations that they had and in their head, in many cases, where it's an insecurity that was about I'm not gonna be good enough to God or to the bit you know, to the job.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

And I I think uh one of the more clever ways I've heard this said that we abided by but didn't have the words for is what I've heard from 37 Signals, uh, the team at 37 Signals, where they value the 888, where it's eight work hours, eight hours for your life and your personal life, and eight hours of sleep. That's the balance that we're looking for. Is like, man, if you're not getting sleep, there's something wrong. If you're not valuing and they don't have enough energy for your family, there's something wrong. And if you aren't getting your work done within the eight-hour time frames of five days a week type thing, then we need to adjust either what's happening at work or adjust the bandwidth that we're at.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

So we're not gonna let things veer off, and this is what you guys are surfacing. Because we do formal evaluations uh after every cycle, things can't veer off very much. And we're gonna talk about how does your spouse feel about your work. Exactly. How does your spouse feel about the time that you go to bed? Yeah, and I remember talking with one of our staff members, and uh there was some gap there about what was happening. I was going, I was like, bro, dude, your spouse wants you to go to bed uh at 10 o'clock with her, not be up another two hours, and every night she goes, yeah, she goes to bed every night. We need to fix something during the work day so that that can happen. So I think that's really powerful when we're talking through this about making sure that we have that information to you.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

You know what sometimes that was? Those people sometimes were not just doing the job that they were called to here, but they had side gigs and they had other things they wanted to do. And so they actually weren't doing the eight, eight, eight. They were doing like eight here, four on their side hustle, four maybe at home or two, whatever. You get it? And so we've got to help people stay within your calling, stay what you're doing, stay in the length. Sustainable schedule. I don't want people losing their faith, losing their family, and losing their morality or their holiness because they're not in a sustainable process. That's right. Okay, so health is very important, and you build a culture like that, people will respect it. I respect that, you know, and it feels good.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

They love me, but basically it's like I can keep this pace. Yes. Without blowing other areas of my life up.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Versus how many people have we talked to of pastors who said I used to be on a staff that basically it it was churn and burn? I mean, you you you you could only be there for like two years and they didn't care. It was kind of in the cadence of what they do.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

The SNL type of mindset of just like you can't stay there that long. It's a really hard work schedule.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

And so you're here for this time, we chew you up, spit you out. Yeah. You know, like that. How many people have we hired on staff

Key 5: Value Them as a Person

SPEAKER_02 22:30

to bring them on? They'll do the work, but we really said they needed to get healed and and know what it looks like to work in this way. That's right. Okay. Number five is value them as a person. I wrote that down. And what I mean by that is when I look at you guys, I don't see you as machinery to accomplish the vision. I see you as the vision. I d that's why even people leaving at times, even if it was sad relationally for them to go, if I knew it was the timing of the Lord and then it's right for them, their win of going to do what God's calling them to do is a win for me because I value them and their calling as a person. And I actually see it as a win for me that they're achieving the calling of God of their life.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

So I want to do a pause here and I want to call this out. So in the beginning, you said you want to value their input, and that's what they're bringing to the organization and how we're getting after our purpose, our vision, our goals, projects, areas. Now you've called it again with we want to value them as a person. Outside of the route. Yeah. So the nine to five is value their input. Now the five to nine or their life and lifestyle is that you actually see them as a person, not just uh a cog that's in this machine thing that we're getting after. That's really important and actually it seems kind of hard to do. It doesn't seem like it's that easy.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Uh, I put it so important that I actually put another one that y'all may tease me, like, that's the same thing, but I see it as different. Value them as a person is saying, I don't just value you because you're doing this job for me. I value as a person who has a calling of God in your life and developing you to fulfill that is part of my assignment in ministry. Okay. But then this the part, I'm going to the next one, is I value their emotional health. Okay. So I know it's a sustainable, see how these kind of work together, but but the part it is so important. I value their emotional health. So every time we do an evaluation, one of our five questions we always talk about is how are you doing really? That's the first one. Yeah, we have to address it.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

We have to add the really because, especially in church, local church culture, if you ask someone how they're doing, oh man, doing good. The Lord's helping us, uh letting us you know move forward. We add the really because we actually want to know what's behind the veil here.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

What's going on with you? What's going with your family? How are you doing emotionally? How are you doing psychologically? How are you doing spiritually? Are you keeping Sabbath? We're going down. Like, I want to know you're good. And if not, I want to know how to help you. So that emotional health piece is I want to ask them. And what we do a lot of times, every staff meeting, what do we do? What's your number? What's your number? One to ten, ten being the best you've ever been, one being the worst ever. Where are you at? You don't even have to tell us why if you don't want to, just tell us a number. That's a value system that's in the culture. It's in a weekly rhythm that we're doing it. And then an evaluation. Okay, now don't just give me a number, go a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

How do you value my emotional health if I say I'm doing a four?

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Then I'm coming by your office afterwards. I'm not asking you, well, why are you a four in front of everybody? I'll come by and say, Hey man, you okay? Talk to me. Can I help you? What's going on? Well, this happened with my kid or whatever. Okay, cool. And here's what I'll do. If I can help them in a way, like, hey, would it be would it be helpful if I could do blah, blah, blah. If there was something I could help, I will do it. The second thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, Have you talked to your counselor about it? And if they aren't in counseling on our staff, we asked all of our pastoral staff to be with a counselor and we paid for it. That was part of the benefit, is we wanted them to go, they hand in the receipt, we're paying for it.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

So the money showed value too, the money and the time. We don't just want to take it.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

And I saw that as a proactive move. Yes. That if I don't want people having an affair, I don't want people tripping out, I don't want them going having to do uh self-medicating stuff because they're not dealing with their life. And how many times has that happened? And yet we're all going, like, what's wrong with these people? Are you valuing in your culture? I'm not doing this in a way that I'm blaming you for their deal, but do we have a culture that it's okay to say I'm not doing well?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I like what you said. You said proactive. So the key here for us pastors and leaders is that you have a specific proactive plan to show value uh that you have so that you're not having to pick up pieces later. Now you may say, hey man, if somebody blew up, we're gonna help them get back into ministry or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Proactive is not just going to a counselor on the crisis, but it's going on the regular so that you're dealing and maintaining, don't don't before it gets to a ticket time. It's gunning stacking up. Didn't deal with that, it's stacking up and explodes.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

So let me clarify one more thing on this, just because I think people might not have heard us talk about this before. Um, you talk about sometimes like I think there could be somebody that'd be like, I'm gonna go to their office and say, How how's it going? I heard you were a four. Like, are you gonna give them a day off of that? Or is it more like what you say is I'm gonna be the best four I could possibly be. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I don't get I I can't remember ever I'm a four and saying, Hey, you need to take a day off. Uh no, I don't do that unless it was something like their wife just went in the hospital and didn't tell us and get let's get to the hospital. You know, now what are you doing? That's that's different. In regular life, I have four days. Yeah. But and so I'll model to people and say, look, today I'm a six, but I'm gonna be the best six I can be. In other words, I'm giving a 10 effort. I'm not saying I'm a six, so I'm gonna I'm gonna uh just like don't talk to me today. Don't talk to me today, I'm a six. Hey, everybody say wait. No, I'm giving my full effort at a six. That's where I'm at. And so right now, you knowing I'm at a six means when you come in, you're coming and approaching me knowing I'm a six. Yeah. I know I'm a six, so I know right now I might get irritated when I wouldn't have gotten irritated before, but I'm aware of it. It's good context. Functioning in that way and understanding it. It's not about okay, I can say I'm a three and now I don't have to work. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Okay, we've we talked about a lot. Can you start from the top again? And then is there any other ones that you think? Yeah, I think there's just one more. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Start but start back over the list.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Let's frame it from the top down to now this. You want to have a healthy culture as a staff, then your staff needs to know what's expected of them. There's too much of this, just do a good job. Yeah, they need to be clear on what the goals are for the next three months, for the next season, okay? Secondly, they need to be evaluated on that. They need to get feedback from you. You're doing awesome. Way to go. Not just come into my office. I need to talk to you about how it went bad this week. They need good feedback on if it's not good, how to get better, not just you're not good. Give them feedback on these are the things I I'd like to see us work towards. Right. Thirdly, is we need to value their feedback, their input. What do you see? How can even if it's fresh eyes, again, like they're new. Why do we do this? Why do we, oh man, that's good. We need to tell everybody again why we do that. It's the horizons, you know, the the uh way of seeing it and telling them the why. And then the fourth is a sustainable schedule. We value Sabbath, we value them with their family and them having being able to do this long term, and it's not gonna be depleting. They have a way of doing it. Number five is that we value them as a person. There's a calling on their life, a purpose on their life. I don't just value you for the work you do, I value you for who you are and who God's called you to be, and I want to help you to fulfill that. And then I value you in your emotions uh and your emotional health so much that if you're not doing well, I want to help you. I want to help you get a coach, I want to help you get that counselor, whatever it is. And then I think the last uh, well, let's say two, I think you got to value their family. And you say, well, how's that different than this? Do you know their spouse's name? Do you know their kids' names? Do you know what their kids do they play soccer? Do they play football? What's going on? Do you know if something's happening in their family and they're sick, whatever? That you value them at a point of that. You've seen me do this because we've done it just as a family, you growing up. Every time we'll eat with another family, I don't just talk to the adults the whole time. Sometimes I get up and just go sit down at the end of the table and talk to their kids. And then how many times have y'all seen me that I'll call the kids over afterwards and say, Let me tell you about your mom and dad. They're the greatest. They're awesome. Do you know how much I love them? Let me tell you two or three things of how great they are, like that, and then I'll say, and I see greatness in you, and I pray for them. That that speaks volumes that I value who they value the most. It's and if you're manipulative on it, shame on you. I mean, like manipulation isn't a tool or a process, it's a heart. It's that I'm using these kids to get to them. But if I really care about you, I really care about your kids. So that's very important. But then the last is I want to add value to them. You want to have a culture that is incredibly healthy and strong. Then when you go on a trip, like you come back with your kids and you give them a, hey, I got you this uh thing from this trip, when you come back, if you're able to add value to them, if you're able to give them a book, give them something, if if you can take them on a trip with you, if you can go to lunch and say, Hey, you want to go to lunch today? I'd love to eat lunch with you. Hey, so sometimes it can be spontaneous, sometimes and uh it's like, hey, let's just go do this. Sometimes it's gotta it needs to be planned where I would pray every day for two of the staff and send them a prayer text of I prayed for you today, and here's what God put on my heart for you. I love you so much. So I did systems, spontaneous, but what it is is what can I give? This is the question I ask every day. What can I give to my team that they would not have had if they weren't on my team?

SPEAKER_00 32:26

So that's what we do. I'm glad you said that because I was thinking about that. I know that has been a foundational perspective that you have is hey, if someone, if God puts someone onto my team, what could I provide to them and what rooms can I get them in? That's that's actually the really cool thing. Who can I connect them to?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Who can I introduce them to? What experience can I give them? Where can they go that they wouldn't be able to go?

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah. It's uh that that book, you know, never eat lunch alone. Yes. Really is this perspective of hey, if I'm going on this journey, I want to invite these people that God has put in my life for this season onto the journey. I want to introduce them to people, I want to get them in rooms, I want to get them resourcing that they wouldn't likely be able to get on their

Key 6: Pay Your Team Well

SPEAKER_00 33:11

on their own. Yeah. Uh in any other context.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Well, one last one last thing. I know I've said one last thing like two times, but these things Were you a pastor ever?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Go ahead. In closing, in closing number six, all of all of the stuff we just said is the depth and the fullness of what it looks like to have a healthy culture.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

But if you do all this but you don't pay them well, you don't pay them in and what I mean by well is you know what the the range is for their position and your church size and all of it, and you're not paying in range because you're just using them and saying, I don't want to do, I want to get the most out of people for the less or for the least I can do, then this is a uh what do you what do you it's disingenuous? It's like I'm well, but I love you, I listen to you, yeah, but you don't pay me. I can't survive. I can't live. It's not sustainable. Okay. So it but there's other people who say, Man, I pay you well. Do you know how many people I know that are at large churches that we've consult, not just who we consult, but we know, they'll pay them great, but don't do any of this. And they're basically saying, I'm paying you to get here and do your job. Uh, I don't really want to have any interaction with you. You get it? That's one way. The other way is I'll be nice to you, be sweet to you, all this, but I'm not gonna really pay you, which says I don't value. You have to have both.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah. Really powerful. So developing a culture on your team where people want to stay and stay long term is not easy. It's very specific and it takes the emotion that you're sharing uh here and yeah, very, very, very intentional. Hey, I know that this has helped you guys. And so, again, man, if you if you are being helped by this podcast, we'd love for you to like it and subscribe and then share it with your friends. And we look forward to seeing you next time.