Pastor, Are You Prepared to Leave? | Ep 43

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You don't have a plan for leaving. Most pastors don't.

It feels too far off to think about — until it isn't. And by the time you're ready to hand off the baton, the financial prep, the identity work, and the marriage prep all needed to have started years earlier.

Scott Wilson watched his dad's generation get stuck: no money saved, no identity outside the role, no next assignment to move toward. So when it was his turn, he built the system differently — starting in his 20s, decades before anyone was asking him to leave.

This conversation breaks down what Scott actually did across three decades to prepare his finances, his identity, and his marriage for the day he'd hand the church to someone else.

In this episode:
- Why succession has to start decades before you plan to leave
- The financial discipline that let him say yes the moment God said "hand it off"
- How to separate your identity from your title before it's forced on you
- Why 80% of failed successions come down to the spouse
- How to build other voices in your church so it isn't dependent on you alone
- Grooming a successor without ever naming one out loud

There is no true ministry success without succession going well.

Transcript

Why most pastors have no plan to leave

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Rady Set Grow Podcast. I am Mark Brewer. I've got Hunter Wilson and Scott Wilson here with me. And by the way, if you're listening to this, but you would prefer to watch this, which sometimes is more fun, just join us over on YouTube and we will be there patiently awaiting your arrival. So we're going to talk about today something that is a really big issue in local church ministry amongst pastors. A lot of us, and I think all of us are thinking through the lens of how can I grow this thing? But growth is optional, okay, according to what God would allow. One of the things that is inevitable is leaving. And most pastors don't have a specific plan for leaving. How should we be thinking about this?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah, it's funny how you just uh talked about that there they don't have a plan to leave. And people would be thinking, like, well, why should I be playing? I'm 28 years old. I just planted this church. Why would I be thinking about leaving? Because I think the only way it works is that you're preparing your heart and your mind and your soul for that handoff. Uh if it's 60, if it's 50, whenever it is. Whatever it is, whatever it's inevitable. Let me tell you when I was in my young 20s, I saw my dad's generation struggle again and again in transitioning.

Watching his dad's generation struggle to transition

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Now it was actually before his generation, because I mean, yeah, I did succession with him 10 years after that in the in my early 30s. But I saw them struggle with uh being, this is what I what I do is who I am, their identity. I saw them struggle with their finances. They didn't, none of uh, all these people, they have no money. And so what are you gonna do? Uh even if I'm tired, even if I'm sick, even if I can't even come to the office.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Even if I want to leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Even if I want to leave. I can't leave. I don't have any money, I don't know how to eat. I have a parsonage, I don't have a place to live, I don't have a means. And so these are problems that don't get solved five years before you want to. Oh man, I think I probably should transition. I'm 65.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

I I do think that's probably like part of the issue is succession kind of feels like hiring. And it's like I'll think about it when I need to do it. And and there is what you're saying is uh something that's multiple paradigm shifts here. One is you need to think about it way

Succession is a paradigm shift, not an event

SPEAKER_02 2:19

in advance. So there's some things that I'd love for you to talk about of what are the things you need to think about in advance, but also when you start out thinking that I am a part of a relay race and I have to hand off the baton one day, it changes your whole paradigm of how you think about how you're gonna be doing things in your day.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

And honestly, that's how Jesus functioned. A lot of times we don't recognize the way he functioned was through the lens of I am leaving, and therefore it does change how you operate.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I'm leaving in three years.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

I'm I'm doing succession in three years. But I mean, he had lived his whole life up to that moment to do that. So he put it focused. That was the focus. I think even every way you do ministry should be in light of a day I'm leaving. Yeah. I thought of it, listen, you know how like if it's uh the question everybody goes, well, I when I think about succession, I'm thinking about who's gonna follow me. You're saying when I'm 20 something years old, I need to think. No, that's that's something way down the road. Yeah, we're talking about preparing your heart, your mind, your soul, preparing yourself and the way you think, and preparing other people around you. I never thought in my 20s, 30s, and 40s, who's gonna follow me. Yeah, what I did do is say to God every day, I'm gonna minister and train and develop every person on my staff and every person I meet to the very best I know how, and you pick who follows me.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

So, what you were saying is I'm not gonna worry about the someone I'm handing off to. What I'm gonna do is make sure that the system that's working every day in our church is ready for that someone.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

I want to prepare to make sure that what I'm handing off to is something that they want to receive.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

100%. So let's just back up. So in my 20s, I started uh seeing this happen. In my 30s, it was happening to me because I was taking uh uh by the time. You're receiving the patron. I was receiving the patron by my dad, and that was not everybody looked at it and goes, man, that's so perfect. It wasn't perfect. My mom and dad would tell you it's not perfect yet. You know, if my dad was here right now, he would say it was really hard for him because he, even though he had something to go to, and by the way, that's a big deal. If you people who are great leaders don't leave their their church, leave ministry, they go to their next assignment. If they don't have a next, it's hard to leave,

Preparing financially before you have the money

SPEAKER_01 4:32

right? It's a hand of the baton and I'm receiving another baton in that apostolic role or in a role of being a spiritual father, all this. But in my 20s, here are the three things I determine. Number one, I am going to put money aside into retirement on purpose. I got a financial planner when I didn't have any money. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't get a financial planner because now I got a whole bunch of money. I got a financial planner and I asked, would you help me? Because I don't want to end up being at a time. Here's what it was with me. I don't want God coming and telling me I want you to hand it off. And I say, I can't. I wanted to be prepared that when he said, Here's your next, I would say, yes, Lord. Yeah. And I was ready. Okay. So the first thing I did is the first five raises I got, I did not get a bigger house. I did not get a bigger car. And I'm not talking about massive rages, I'm talking about cost of living, whatever I got. If I got a raise, uh, I put that into a retirement, my 403B at the church. I put that in because I said I I'm going to prioritize this. And then after I did that, I felt, okay, the financial planner and I felt like, okay, that's good. We we got a house, we did all that. But number one, and and by the way, I've did that all the way from my 20s, all the way till now. Right now I'm 57 next uh this month, and I'm continuing to do that, okay?

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Uh even uh you know, to invest into the three 403B, not all of your raises type things.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, thank you. No, I I have taken the rest of the raises, you know, uh, but I've what I've done is I've maxed it out now. But then I just had to get started. Yeah. Okay. So, but basically what I was saying is that wasn't easy to do. Jenny and I had to make a decision that that moment of obedience and having the money there prepared was more important than us going and getting in a house right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

You you see what I'm saying? That's a decision early on.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

So when I when I'm young, I want to be financially preparing myself to leave.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Exactly. And you say, well, oh yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that when I get a little bit more money. I can't. Listen, I you got to do that when you make a decision as priority and working with a financial planner

When your job becomes your identity

SPEAKER_01 6:45

to make that decision. So that's number one. Number two was my identity. My dad and everybody I knew in ministry, their identity was so closely tied. And I don't just say his generation, my generation. All generations have a tendency to say, hey, hey, tell me about you. Well, this is what I do. And so what I do is who I am. And especially as a pastor, you many times that calling on your life from God even causes the identity thing to be even closer. Is if I'm not a pastor, what am I? I'm a nothing. My dad was trained by his dad, telling him basically, if you're not a pastor, you don't really have a job that matters. I mean, I know that doesn't make sense totally in life. It's totally bogus, but to him, yeah, that was it. And so even when my dad felt God calling him to start a school that now runs 5,000 students, free tuition, 10 locations, you know, and he started that. It was his vision to start that school, and he knew that's what God called him to do. He could not mentally disconnect from the fact of if I'm no longer Pastor Wilson, Pastor Tom Wilson, and I'm superintendent Wilson, that that's a demotion.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

In meaning. In meaning and purpose. Isn't that crazy? So there's no biblical context. You can't even proof text that. And yet, because of that piece of information that was in his mind and is in a lot of our minds, it was made it was really difficult for him to make some of those transitions.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I think what I uh very, very, very difficult. Very like I'm telling you, we we were having discussions just a few months before the transition with the guy who was helping us on whether he they could do it. Yeah. And and so this is hard stuff at that deal. And so what I said in my 20s uh or uh and as I was moving into the 30s and that happening, I'm so glad I did it, was I started talking to a counselor. Yeah. I started going to a counselor and saying, hey, I want to make sure that my identity is in my relationship with Jesus and whatever he's called me to do. So if he's called me to be a youth pastor, my identity isn't youth pastor. My identity is I am a man of God, called of God, anointed of God to minister. And at this point, in this role.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

And it's the separation from the vision and the vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yes, exactly. This is just the vehicle he's given me right now. The vision is I serve God to minister to people and to disciple and to train up other leaders and people around.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Wherever and whatever that is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

It was young people here, then it became as an associate pastor, then it became as a lead pastor, now it is with Ready Set, grow to help pastors. I mean, my whole life has been the same thing is minister to people, lead them to Christ, disciple them, and develop them into the fullness of what God's called them to be. That that can be an identity that doesn't connect to a title and a role.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

And in this season, do you get it? In what vehicle do you want that to be?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Exactly. Yeah. So part of it is I started going to counseling and didn't go for a crisis. I went as part of my growth plan and part

Why he started counseling in his 20s

SPEAKER_01 9:44

of my growth team. I wanted to have because first of all, I went there kind of wanting to talk about those things, but I realized after starting to talk, I had a whole lot more things I needed to talk about that was causing my identity and my self-esteem and all how I got fed in my ego or how I function to feel okay about myself. Man, that I I've been in counseling since my late 20s till right now at 57, I'm still going, just had one three days ago, you know. I mean, this is uh a counseling session because I want to be processing with someone who is a talented, gifted, killer expert with emotions and and counseling and all of that to help me. I need a professional burden bearer, you know, like when the Bible says carry each other's burden. I need somebody who's really good at it to help me. Yeah. And so I started doing that, and Jenny started doing that uh early on to prepare us. And here was the big shift for me. I didn't see myself as having to be the guy who's on the mic. I started seeing myself as the guy who hands out mics. In other words, my whole job is to raise up other people, to raise you up, to raise you up, to see you guys here function in this way. I can function alongside, but you guys are right there next in many ways, even beyond me on this thing. So that was big to me. And a lot of that had to do with how God gave me that vision, you know, that dream that night where I was preaching to this outdoor crusade. I had this dream, and there's a wooden podium in front of

The dream that redefined his identity

SPEAKER_01 11:21

me and a hole in the platform, and my dad was standing in that hole. Everybody saw me here like this. They didn't know that my dad was standing in that hole, and I was standing on his shoulders, his hands around my ankles like this, praying for me. And I said, God, I thank you for showing me that I'll thank dad tomorrow when I wake up, you know, when he wakes up and tell him, but why are you showing me this? He said, Because to everybody else, it looks like you're standing on a platform, you know, that that you built for yourself, but you're standing on your dad's shoulders. And he said, I want you to know your life and ministry will not be defined by the platforms you stand on, but by those who stand on your shoulders. Yeah. That became my identity is to train up others to help others win. And when you have an identity shift that is more connected to helping other people win, then it can be as a pastor, it can be as a consultant, it can be in any role.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

And I think a lot of it is a lot of God-sized dreams are multi-generational dreams.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

One why do you think God even says, I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? He's saying I am a God with a multi-generational vision for my people. And I'm not just the God of one person, I'm a God of a leader who raised up a leader, who raised up a leader, a father, who raised up a son to be a father, who raised up a son to be a father. You know, this is this is the vision. And so that's part of what we do. That's why, you know, I started saying, you know, you don't have success without succession. You can have a successful ministry, but you will be defined by not just what you did in your day, but by what you set the next generation up to do, and the next generation becoming better, better, yeah, better, bigger, better and stronger.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. And I think the call out too here is that a lot of pastors would say, man, we're a multi-generational church. And I would say, no, you're a multi-demographic church, meaning you've got young people, old people, middle-aged people, uh, different backgrounds, ethnicities, and colors. If you were a multi multi-generational church, you're thinking, what are we doing today to set something in motion for 10 generations from now? That's the key. That's the big difference between multi-generational and multi-demographic is what am I doing to constantly set up future generations for handoffs? Really?

SPEAKER_01 13:36

And you need to be thinking about that, not just when you're in your 50s and 60s. You need to be thinking about that in your 30s. Right now, you need to, and some people, I even had a pastor last week say to me, He says, Man, you talk about this multi-generational, you talk about being a spiritual father. I'm only 30 years old. Who wants me as a spiritual father? I said, a spiritual father, it it's not there, there can be like a mindset where we have like the office of an evangelist, but then everybody's supposed to evangelize. We can have the office of the teacher, but we're also supposed to disciple people, okay? In this way, in the same way, there can be an apostolic type spiritual father that that guy's a spiritual father because he's been doing it so long, it's who he is. Okay. But fathering and mothering, being a spiritual parent is something that is about a heart, not about an age. It's about I care more about you winning than getting you to help

The overlooked variable: your marriage

SPEAKER_01 14:26

me win. That's what a father means. It's somebody who cares about that next generation so much that they want them to learn everything I got and take it to another level.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

So you said that there's the financial preparation, there's the identity shift.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

And then the third, I'm not sure everybody totally has on their radar, and it may be an aha right now, and that is your marriage. The marriage is such a tension moment in the succession. Uh, in fact, Dr. Sam Chan, who did, who led, he's probably the done more of the succession planning behind the scenes for the biggest, largest church ministries that you've seen that that worked and did well. He's the guy behind the scenes. He did that for me and dad. He did that for me and Chris. Uh 20 years apart, he did both. He's incredible in this. And you know what he says, and I agree from all the people I've helped on succession. 80% of all of the succession moments that go bad, not 80% go bad, but 80% of the ones that go bad are because of the spouse, one of the spouses, or both. You say, oh my gosh, that's so mean. No, it's a it's an observation of the struggle that isn't just with the lead pastor and this the person coming in to take, you know, the guy going out and the guy coming in. It's the spouses are involved as well. And this is it's a big deal. So you say, well, what is the big deal? Well, first of all, it can be that the pastor and the the spouse, uh, and and I'm saying like me and Jenny, it could be uh other pastors that that you know, the wife was doing ministry in the church as the women's director, but they've been taking care of kids their whole life. They've been doing stuff at home their whole life, and now they finally got to do their ministry. They're now in the empty nest, and now they're being able to really go full on uh to what they want to do, and now you're tired and they have to quit their ministry and they have to give up their, you know, we may not call it, you know, first lady, but they they they have to it's not their church anymore. It's not their home anymore.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

It's a realization again to what the scripture says that the marriage is a new entity, it's a new creation. The two shall become one is a whole brand new uh creation. So to not include that in your succession plan and understand it as that is gonna be real problematic because it is a thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah. So what's gonna happen is number one, they feel like they have to give up their ministry if they're involved in ministry. Your mom, Jenny, my wife, was was involved, but it was more of in hospitality and relationship and doing this. It wasn't like she had a role as women's ministry, all this. She and I had been processing for years on whatever we were gonna do, we would do together, we walk together, we pray together, do this together all the way through, that she really was a help to me in the transition and helped us uh through the whole deal. And she didn't struggle with it as much. But I think it's because of the prep, you know, of all the preparation we did. But here's what happens a lot of times it's

When a new leader's spouse feels threatened

SPEAKER_01 17:31

they have to give it their ministry. Secondly, it is there's a new lady coming in who's taking over their home, you know, like you know, the nesting type feel of a mother is this is our family. I'm the mama to the family, I'm this, and now I'm losing that role. And another woman is coming in, taking that role. That can also be not just that lady, the the wife uh and the husband that are stepping to a new position out of that lead pastor, but the new ones coming in. It can be an insecurity from the new woman coming in of I don't think she likes me. She she's not gonna let me do anything, uh you're doing the women's wrong. I mean, you get this is where it can happen. And here's the deal you say, well, they get those husbands should just take control of that. Yeah, right. That that does it when you're at home and those dialogues are going on, that's why it may not be a year, it may not be two years, but like within three years, it something's gonna blow up. And uh because of that fest string.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

So the key is a lot of specific work, especially on the marriage. Do not assume that just because one person's stepping out.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

The number two thing that you said early on was I'm gonna do the work, but it's not a gimme that we don't have to do the work to get it. Because I started going to gimme people think it's a gimme of like I'm the person leading it, like you're not even involved, you don't even work here. Like you you are here, but you don't work here, so you don't really have to do the work as much. It's my thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

You underestimate the pain and the trauma or the the difficulty it can be for the spouse because it's you being the pastor, not them. Yeah. But now it's it's it's probably more meaningful for people that are co-pastoring and their spouse is really involved of how we need to do that. But here's how Jenny and I started doing it. I didn't just start going to counseling, we started going to counseling. So I would go on my own for my own issues, and we would back go it back to back. We'd go together for an hour, and then I stayed over for an hour to deal with my issues, you know. And that wasn't just all about succession. It was about, hey, I'm struggling with this staff mayor, I'm struggling with this in the church, I'm struggling with this in my family with my kids. So it was all of those things. But I'll tell you what, it got me focused on saying, I don't own this church. Yeah. One of the biggest things I'm telling you I started doing is I would walk into my office at least once a week and I'll say, Thank you, God, for letting me use this office. This isn't my office. It's the office I get to use as long as I'm the lead pastor here. The moment you tell me, I release it to you. I would go like that, I would say, I release it to you. I'd I do that when I'm 30 years old, 35 years old. I I would when I would go in to preach, I'd say, thank you, God, for the opportunity to preach to your people today. They're not my people, they're your people. Yeah. I'm a steward here, not an owner. Thank you, Lord, for letting me be a part of this church. I did that over and over to remind myself, I don't own this place. I am assigned here as a steward for this season. And then part of it was, like I said before, I would disciple everybody in our team that I thought

Grooming a successor without naming one

SPEAKER_01 20:33

had lead pastor potential. And I didn't tell them, hey, maybe you would take it over someday. Maybe you'd take it over. I would never say, don't ever say that. But I just would all say, look at the greatness and help them go plant. I helped Chris Rayleigh, who took the church here. I didn't keep him on and say, if you leave, you can't be the, you can't follow me. I don't even have it in my mind that that would happen. He felt like God told him to plant, I helped him plant. He went to go to Springfield and do what he did there, and I helped him the whole time he was there because I loved him, not thinking about it until God told me one day he was supposed to take it. And you know that was weird because I was 49 years old, about to turn 50, and he was turning 43. And I started going, like, what? Why are you telling me, God, that he's gonna follow me when I'm not even I'm turning 50 and he's 43. I mean, dude, he should be, he's 43 years old. He should be taking a church right now, not waiting until I'm 60, you know, because in my mind, 60 and what I'd been thinking would be a great early age to transition. Based on our experience at that point. And so uh the Lord said, Well, that's what spiritual fathers do. They don't wait till they feel like it's time to make the move. They see when their son is ready and when I've assigned it. So all along the way. And then they make that transition.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

All along the way, when we're talking about succession, we're talking about preparing the system for the someone. You don't have to have the someone up front. Right. It's about preparing the system, both in your finances, uh in your identity, in the things that are happening inside the church and what's operating uh in that realm. And so you're building that system and then the marriage, you're building all of those systemized things so that when it becomes clear who the someone is, the thing's already set up.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Exactly. And here's one of the things that that you're saying is you're setting up the system. One of the things I did in the beginning is I thought I needed to preach every week. But then I started realizing, you know what I think might be better is if I preached 36 to 38 weeks and had other people because I didn't want it to be on my voice and on me alone. I wanted it to be their other voices. We're a church, not that ain't Scott Wilson's church. That's Oaks Church. Scott Wilson's a pastor right now. You see what I'm saying? It's a different mentality. So I was developing other voices, other people all along the way. Now that didn't mean people didn't look at me and say, oh my gosh, I I don't know. I want you as my pastor. You've been my pastor. I you you you I got saved here, baptized here, my baby's here, you know, all you get it? It wasn't people didn't see me as the leader and love me that way. Yeah. It's that we could make that transition and they could trust that I was hearing

The real cost of waiting too long

SPEAKER_01 23:11

from God, the next person on this.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

I think what I love about this, as my final thought, and you can say something too if you want, is the problem that's facing a lot of pastors that aren't really ready to do a transition, is they think about succession almost like the length of time of building a house. It's like, yeah, I know I got it's gonna be hard. And and I probably got to put a lot of thought into it. But it's probably like nine months worth of work, seven months worth of work. Like it's the it's the near term, and I'll think about it down the road. But if you only wait till it's time for you to leave, that you're starting to do the preparation work. There is years of lack of preparation that you're gonna pay the cost about. And and what I love is what you're teaching is there's so many things that you can work on way in advance to prepare the soil, to prepare the asset, the basically the whole thing that you're handing off in the baton, that it's something that somebody's willing to take and you're being ready when God's calling you to hand off the baton to them.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

The greatest joy of your life, it should be like Paul when he writes to the church and he says, Man, what is my joy? What is my crown? Is it not you? The greatest joy of life for me is to be able to see right now Chris and Kara lead the church at a whole other place, whole other level, best it's ever been. I can tell you right now, the church is better than it's ever been that I've ever been a part of. It's better than when I was pastor. Yep. It's at a whole other level. That's something that that's my joy, that's my crown. That's I'm on the front row going, amen. Come on, baby, this is awesome. That should be the goal of our life. There is no true ministry success without succession going well.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Powerful. Hey, thank you for joining us here today at Ready Set Grow Podcast. And we'll see you soon.