Why Your Staff Dreads Their Evaluations | Ep 38

If you want staff evaluations your team actually looks forward to — ones that build confidence instead of dread — learn more about the Ready Set Grow Mastermind: https://www.readysetgrowchurch.com/mastermind

The moment the meeting gets scheduled, something shifts.

Their stomach drops. They start replaying every mistake from the last few months. They wonder what they did wrong.
That reaction isn't a people problem. It's a system problem.

Most churches only evaluate their staff when something's wrong. So of course it feels like the principal's office — because it usually is.

This episode breaks down a better way: rhythmic, expected one-on-one evaluations that happen every season — not as a verdict, but as a conversation. One that builds clarity, confidence, and trust between you and every person on your team.

Inside:
- Why fear-driven evaluations are quietly costing you the trust and performance of your best staff members
- The shift from "we need to talk" to "let's celebrate and grow" — and what that difference actually does to your team culture
- Five questions that structure every one-on-one and eliminate the guesswork for both sides
Why the person being evaluated should always speak first — and how that one change turns a verdict into a conversation
- How to make sure nothing in the evaluation is ever a surprise — for you or for them
- Why your star players need this rhythm just as much as anyone else on your team

No one should ever leave your church saying "I didn't even know what I did wrong."

Transcript

Intro: The Messy Middle Curriculum

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey friends, today's episode is going to be a little bit different. What you're about to listen to comes from our middle method curriculum, which is a core pillar of our ready set growth framework that helps pastors and church leaders navigate the messy middle. Now, you might be asking yourself, what do you mean by the messy middle? The messy middle is that frustrating space between casting a vision and then actually seeing it happen. Because here's the truth, dude, vision is exciting, but the messy middle, that's where the real work begins. Now, we originally created this training for leaders inside of the ReadySight Grow Mastermind, but dude, we just love the way that some of these turned out so much that we wanted to share a few of these conversations with you here on the podcast as well. So if you want to go deeper on any of this stuff, you can find the link to our mastermind in the description below. But for now, let's dive into today's episode.

Heartbeats vs. One-on-Ones: Team vs. Individual

SPEAKER_02 0:57

All right, one-on-one evaluations. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

So we were just talking about heartbeats. Yep, which is evaluating on a team level, did we do what we said we were going to do? And now we're gonna break it down to the individual level.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah, so just the comparison there, as you'll see on the screen, heartbeats reflect the team, okay? Uh and then how do we do team performance, one-on-one evaluations that reflects the individual? Yep. And how did you do as an individual your performance? And it's heartbeats. Hey, this is what we did together, one-on-one. What did you accomplish in this cycle? And you're thinking about heartbeats from an organizational confidence standpoint, whereas the one-on-one that's doing a few things. One, it's going to build personal clarity. Yeah. Okay. I know what I'm on the hook for here, growth, and then ownership. This is my zone. So you're really essentially with that one-on-one evaluation, you're you're answering the question that everybody has. Yes. Uh, do they think I'm doing a good job?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, 100%. And in traditional evaluations that happen on an annual basis is very different from the middle method version of what we're doing here.

Why Traditional Evaluations Create Fear

SPEAKER_00 2:06

And I think there's a couple of big reasons why. So traditionally, most churches only evaluate their staff when something's wrong. So you do that when it trains people to um to dread that meeting and they fear the feedback. Right? Hey, I need to have a one-on-one with you. It's like, oh crap, I'm going to the principal's office. Right? In the middle method, evaluations are normal, they're rhythmic, they're expected, right? So traditionally, people only come in to get evaluated when something breaks, and you're going to the principal's office, never for a good reason. Yes. Right. And in the middle method, we do it every single cooldown. They know it's coming. Traditionally, it's to do

The Middle Method: Rhythm Over Reaction

SPEAKER_00 2:53

damage control. That's why you do it. In the middle method, you do it for development of the person. Traditionally, it's fear-driven. Middle method, it's rhythm driven. Traditionally, you have the basically, hey, we need to talk. In the middle method, it's, hey, let's celebrate all the great things that you did.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I'm just laughing, even the even the way you you phrased

"We Need to Talk" vs. "Let's Celebrate and Grow"

SPEAKER_02 3:16

that. Think about how you would feel if someone says, hey, we need to talk, as compared to, hey, let's celebrate and grow. Yes. Like just emotionally, I'm feeling totally different on that.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Because it trains fear versus training growth mindset.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Because the thing is, is if you already have your 365, so that's what we're going to evaluate on, if they already know what it is, then they already know what we're talking about when you get in the room. There's no surprise of, oh God, I wonder what they want to talk about. Yeah, exactly. I know what they want to talk about. We do it every time. It's a rhythm. And it's not just about the 365, just that, it's about the five questions we do every time.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

So you're saying when we're getting the room, when we're doing this one-on-one evaluation, every cool down, there's five questions that we want to answer.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah, every single time somebody's coming in to say I'm the I'm the lead pastor, they're coming in to meet with me, or if it's the executive pastor, they're

Five Questions for Every One-on-One Evaluation

SPEAKER_01 4:08

coming to meet with you. Everybody already knows the five questions. In fact, they've come in and they've answered the five questions themselves. And then if I'm the one meeting with them, I've answered the five questions of what I think about them. So let's go through them real quick. Number one is how are you really? This is talking about the person. I think this is important because what's sad is how sometimes people can look at people on their staff as machinery to accomplish the vision instead of the vision itself. That the person is important. I care more about you than I do just about what you do. And so the first question is, how are you? For real. Like for real. How are you? I want to hear it's everything going on in your family, your life, not just the job, you. Yep. And so they're gonna tell me that. Secondly, is uh they're gonna tell me how do they think they're doing in their work. This is their self-evaluation. It's how they view how they're doing. Sometimes, you know what's funny is they'll come in and they'll say they're not doing as good, you know, as they wish they could, and I'll go, I think you're doing great. Other times they'll come in and go, like, dude, I think I'm I'm doing really good. And I'll go, there's some areas I'd like to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, what's interesting about it is some of the best performers are the harshest critics of themselves. Sure. And they need me to do number three.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Here's how I think you're doing. This you just tell me how you think you're doing. Let me tell you how I think you're doing so that we can talk about those things. Very important uh on that. And then the fourth move, the fourth question that they've come in to talk about and I've come in to talk about is uh what should change for the next cycle? That's not just me telling them what needs to change, they're telling me what they think they need to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Then this is really in somewhere between the three, six, and the five. So here's what changes we should make to my three goals. Are there any adjustments to the six responsibilities? Or are there any characteristics of the five staff values that are not happening right now that need to get corrected?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah, a lot of times I don't know that people, and if they did, that's pretty self-aware. If somebody came in and said, hey, listen, I know I need to stop gossiping, or hey, listen, I I know I need to work on my attitude. Okay, great. Most of the time that's going to be stuff I'm saying to them, hey, we need to grow in this area, whatever. Either way, we're talking about now as we step into this next cycle, uh, what needs to be adjusted.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

And we're making an assumption because these the 365 is not static, like the previous job description example we've said. And because it's not static, we're making an assumption. Something needs to change between the 365 of last cycle and the 365 of this cycle.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

And I was just using the example as the five. That's probably not even the biggest thing that that we're talking about as much as I know in this next cycle. Here are the areas of responsibility I have. Like if they're coming in and telling me, and I think I might, I think they're the same, or I think on this one, probably in this next cycle, it needs to shift to this. That's my thought. What do you think, Pastor? It'd be like that, they would say, or on the goals. I want to hear what they think are the three biggest things that need to be done this next cycle. And what I'll do is I'll say, here are the three I have. I'd like you to take number two and not do it. That's not even what I'm wanting you to do. Podcast, you keep bringing that up. I don't want you to do a podcast, you know, like this. I want you to have this is number one, two, and three, and we agree

How Both Sides Prepare Before the Meeting

SPEAKER_01 7:25

on it. And then the fifth question is always what kind of support do you need? Yeah. How can I help you win?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

What do you need from me to help you? So let's talk about. I want to show you something right here for anybody that's watching on this visual, is the preparation for this meeting. So I'm gonna go with the person that's getting evaluated. Okay, the person that's getting evaluated, that's in green. Okay. So they're gonna come in with number one answered. How are you really? They're gonna come written up, how do you think you're doing with your work? They're gonna come in what they think should change for the next cycle. And they're gonna come in with what can I do to help you win. Now the leader, the person that's giving the evaluation, they're gonna come in filling out number three, here's how I think you're doing. And then I might have suggestions. So we'll both come in writing number four, what should change for next cycle? I have opinions and you might have opinions, and then we're gonna collaborate together on what should change uh together. But obviously, you're the leader, so you have the final say inside of it. That's it, love it. So let's talk about three six five, because three six five, the job description that fixed on an index car, there's the three, the six, and the five. That is really, really um hit on number two and number three. So let me show you what I mean here. How do you think you're doing with your work? And here's how I think you're doing. So let's just say our friend Steve Smith here, the wide receiver uh for the Carolina Panthers.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

You you you said that because you were about to say the P word, Pittsburgh Steelers, and you stopped. That's why you're laughing right now.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

So Steve Smith over here, he he now works at our church and he has a 365, right? So we're gonna look at his thing, and he's gonna come in and with his opinion of here's how I think I did on my 365 of the past cycle. I did greens on this responsibility, this responsibility, and I did yellow on this goal, sorry, and then on the responsibilities over here. I did number one, two, five, and six. I did greens and three and four. I think I did kind of like a yellow. I could have done some more, right? And then I'm gonna come in as a leader doing the wide receiver Steve Smith uh over here, and I'm gonna come in with my perspective on his performance.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Very little, uh, very little of this is left to chance and left to surprise. It's when I come into my 365, yeah. When I come in and I'm sharing my 365 with you guys, I pretty much 99% of the time know where I'm at and where you think I'm at. Yeah. Because it we didn't begin this, and then now this is the only time we've met on this. We've been doing cycle rocks, we've been doing updates, we've been doing evaluations and reporting all along the way. Yep. So it's not like all of a sudden we're so surprised about this.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Plus, before the evaluation, we had the heartbeat. So I knew whether or not the final standing of how the things that you were responsible for this past cycle went. So it's gonna be pretty obvious that we're gonna talk about number four.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

I also hope that everybody is is putting this all together that you got the weekly three and the daily three that is telling you in the psycho rock dashboard, you've got all that. But it also can be that you can go back and do coaching and say, hey, let's look back at your weekly three and your a daily three on why this is a is a red. Like what I don't know that we kept that where it needed to be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

So inside of this, again, like we talked about on the weekly three and daily three, you don't have to be surprised at the end. So you have the weekly three, daily three as being public. Also, if you wanted to, and especially if I had somebody that I'm still developing or there's not a lot of trust there because we haven't worked together very long. I'm gonna have weekly one-on-ones with them where I'm gonna talk about their weekly three and daily three from the past week. So nothing should be a surprise by the time you get to this meeting, and they shouldn't be shocked that number four is a red, because that's very clear through the heartbeats and all the stuff we just talked about

Why the Evaluated Person Should Speak First

SPEAKER_00 11:28

that that was underperforming. Okay. So in this, we have your perspective, which is you getting evaluated, you're coming in, and there's my perspective, and there's a kind of choreography that goes to this of who talks first. Can you talk about that, Mark?

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Yeah, I think the idea here is that if you speak first as the leader, then it becomes more of a verdict.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Here's what's true.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yeah, here's what's true. Uh, you're not really allowing to uh for yourself to learn anything new. Yeah. And then I think thirdly, you're doing the work. I always want people to do the heavy lifting first, and then I'm gonna come in and provide perspective based on what they're seeing, what what they have said, uh, and then how they perform. So if they speak first, number one, it becomes more of a conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Because now you know where they're they're saying what happened. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

And I always did this, I still do this with you guys. I I send in before we have our meeting, I'm sending you what I think my 365 looks like and all the information because I also want to make it easy on you as my leader to just edit or talk around the things that you think stand out and not have to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So a lot of the piece of it. A lot of the preparation that happens is I always want the person that I'm evaluating to send in their five questions, the ones we talked about 24 hours before the thing, right? The most amount of prep work that I have to do is things that you think are green that I think are red. And I'm gonna be like, this is gonna be a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be because you are just not seeing this. Yep. But it becomes a conversation because let's talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Sometimes I've come into these things and I think something's red and it shifts to a yellow after I've heard them talk about it. Yep. Like I'm going to more information. It's a conversation. I forgot about that. Or hey, wow, that gives me friends. I'm not as much of like you messed this up as much as there were things that came in that complicated this, and it's more a yellow than it is a red. Yep. I if I start out, it's red, and then they go, and then I go, okay, my bad. It saves me from from being a person who is having to backtrack.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

So what happens on the conversation instead of a verdict, too, dad, is if there were things I didn't know about and you didn't tell me because, hey, I don't want you to have to worry about me. It's like, okay, now we're even talking about here's the type of information I do want to know because I'm mad during the thing that you're not doing the work, and I'm like, what is happening? Why are they not doing this? When you're trying to protect me from information that's complicating things, that's a great conversation that we're trying to do. It's a great place for discipleship. And you're learning what they see, which is next.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

That's the key. So it's a conversation now. Uh, I'm being able to learn what they're seeing and what they're experiencing, so it's exposing the gaps between my thinking and their thinking. And then they get to do the front-end work, and I get to save my voice and my mind and my heart to to edit or respond to them. And it's just a great place for discipleship to take place.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

If you have a 45-minute evaluation or an hour, 30 minutes, I'd want

How This Protects You When Things Go South

SPEAKER_00 14:35

them to take up I'd want them to be talking maybe 70%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

And here's what happens. Regardless of the time that's given to it, when when I present to you guys what my 365 is, it fast tracks that meeting. It it it becomes very clear what we need to talk about and what we don't need to talk about. Yep. Oh, you're green, green, green, green, green, green. Okay, let's talk about this. Mark, you said you were yellow. I thought you were a green. Talk to me why you think you're a yellow on this. Yep. And it just fast tracks it.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It makes it very, very meaningful and it helps you to know how to parade. Yep. And I think this one-on-one evaluation is exactly what you're doing here, as we're doing in the heartbeats, is you're building confidence in the individual, not just the team. Hey, youth department, y'all crushed it. I'm saying, Mark, you crushed it. You're amazing. The 365 and the individual one-on-one evaluation, and then I'd love to hear your final thoughts on it, is it's a way for me to do leadership development on an individual level, not just critique them on all the things and flaws that I see of what's happening in their performance. It becomes a leadership development tool to where I am seeing where they're at and I'm going to where they're at and helping them to see what I see. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

It's also where your performance improvement plans come into play if they're not hitting it. Yep. So one of the things on this is I have heard so many times from people have saying stuff like this, my pastor let me go, or this church let me go. I didn't even know what I don't even know what I did wrong. They never even told me. I why didn't you tell me you didn't like this or you didn't like that? You're just letting me go. Or, and that could be true, there have been people who actually I've given them 365 and I've given them reds and said, Hey, you're you're on probation this next cycle. Like, we're gonna meet, and I want to help you get improved so you can get to where we're at a green. Yep. And they hit red again and they're going, like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Okay, you do know. We let's go back. This has been six months now. We've been having dashboard discussions, we've been having just truly there's no surprises.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

We're taking the surprise element out of evaluation.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Whether it's digital or it's actual printed paper, it is a paper trail. Yes. That leads to the natural repercussions of if something needs to go sell. So if I it's going to be.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And guess who this is going to? Before I let them go, before we're uh I've already told the board, I've already showed them uh the documentation. Here's what we've said, here's the deal. So they're not like going like, man, we should get this guy into the channel.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

I think in a lot of ways, Pastor, it's it it helps us because we're so heart connected with the people on our teams. What it does is it informs us in being better pastors and helps us prove to ourselves that we've actually done the work to

Why Your Star Players Need This Too

SPEAKER_02 17:29

pastor a person well. And if it's not going well, there's no surprise about the journey that we've been on.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah. And I think this is uh such a great uh recurring rhythm for if things go south, but the opposite is also true. Yes. Your star players want to know if you're seeing the contribution that they're making, and it's a great way to validate the hard work that they're doing and recognize the contributions that they're uh contributing to the organization. So the one-on-one evaluation is such a critical individual leadership development tool that should not be feared. It's a time to grow and it's a time to celebrate the work that the individuals on your team are making.