The Shift That Unlocks Your Staff’s Potential | Ep 32

If you’re ready to stop being the sole expert in your church and start building a team of empowered leaders who can carry the mission with you, learn more about the Ready Set Grow Mastermind here:
https://www.readysetgrowchurch.com

Most pastors don’t struggle with vision—they struggle with letting go.
In the early stages of a church, being the expert works. You solve problems, make decisions, and carry the weight of the ministry. But as the church grows, that same strength becomes the very thing that limits your team.
This episode breaks down the leadership shift required to unlock your staff’s full potential—moving from being the expert on everything to becoming the leader of experts.

The tension isn’t just strategic. It’s personal. It’s an identity shift from being the one with all the answers to building a team that brings better answers than you ever could.

In this conversation:
- Why pastors become the bottleneck without realizing it
- The hidden identity trap behind “being the expert”
- How to lead people who are better than you in their lane
- A simple framework (10-80-10) to lead projects without micromanaging
- How systems—not personality—unlock scalable growth

If your team still depends on you for every decision, you’re not building leaders—you’re building dependency. And dependency doesn’t scale.

Transcript

Why pastors struggle to let go

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hey my friends, and welcome to the Ready Set Grow Podcast. I am Mark Brewer, your host. I have Hunter Wilson with me and Scott Wilson. And if you have not already done so, go ahead and subscribe, like, and share this with your friends, your family, and people that are on the ministry journey with you as well. You know, one of the things that we've recognized in growing churches, it is really difficult for leaders sometimes to move past, hey, I'm the expert on everything, to becoming a leader of experts on all this stuff. So what are some of the things that you navigate in doing that?

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Yeah, when we're talking about lead being a lead pastor, and when the church is starting, you are the expert you would think on everything, like how to do worship, all of this. You may even be, like in our case, we were leading worship and doing the preaching and doing the organizing, you know, that and trying to get volunteers to help. So at that point, it's kind of like you're the expert of everything, you know. But then as the church grows, it becomes more and more complicated. Yeah. I mean, you want to talk about now we've got to build a building. I don't know how to build a building.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

You know, I uh now we have legal issues and we're

The identity shift that growth requires

SPEAKER_01 1:22

needing to one of the things I've recognized though, it's not just the operational stuff of recognizing other people might be more expert. There's a lot of emotion that goes in.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

It's it's an identity piece. And and I think what happens too is when you're operating like a mom and pop shop, it's mom and pop's shop, right? So it's like the but as things get bigger, things get more complicated. That's where you can when when it's like I'm the expert, I'm the one that knows everything, it's because you don't have any systems. So people literally are like don't know how to solve problems, don't know the go-to procedural things, they don't know uh what to do, and it's your thing. So like I'm gonna come to you because all the systems are in your head. And and as we get more complicated, we have to get things out of our head and into the system. But the identity piece is I am valuable because I am the problem solver. I am valuable because I can fix it. I am valuable because I'm the expert. But as you get bigger and bigger, you can't be the

Why you can’t scale as the expert

SPEAKER_02 2:22

go-to person for everything. There is a capacity to what one person can do. And you start to have to uh recruit other people if you want to scale. If you want to stay mom and pop, you can stay mom and pop.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Well, that's why they stay mom and pop, is because I'd rather be the one who's making all the decisions and be the go-to person who's doing it. Yeah, I can't go to a place. I had a pastor this last week tell me, I am so struggling right now, and I think I know what I got to do, but it's really hard. And I said, What are you talking about? He said, I've gotten to the place where I can't run the finances the way we're running them anymore, and I don't know how to do it. So I've got to get somebody to do that. I don't know how to organize everything that we're doing to go to the next level. We're kind of stuck at this level. And so I had got a consultant to come help me on that. I said, that's great, you know, besides us. We were doing it, but he had somebody else, you know, and then uh on this certain area on marketing, you know, and what they were doing. Then he said, But I feel like I got now, I just got two people telling me what to do. And I'm not used to people telling me what to do. They're telling me, and I feel like they're telling me you're not doing this good, you're not good. And it's making me frustrated. Like, I think I need to go to my counselor and talk. I said, You do need to

Becoming the conductor, not the player

SPEAKER_03 3:31

because you're gonna have to switch. My value isn't on being the expert, my value is on being able to work and get the most out of experts that can possibly happen. I think of it this way, and this is it helped them. I said, think of yourself as a conductor of an incredible orchestra, like say the greatest orchestra in the world. That guy playing the trumpet or that that lady that's playing the oboe or whatever is on there. You can't play those instruments. They're the masters of that instrument. But without you, they're not gonna play together to get the greatest uh symphony that could be played. And so you've got to become the person, and to be the leader of experts, oh my gosh, that's a whole other level of leadership.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

I I think too, what's interesting about this is what was said versus how it's interpreted to the leader, because what I think is happening on the I'm the expert for everything is at the beginning, uh, when you're in church plant mode, all you are trying

From “minions” to real leaders

SPEAKER_02 4:26

to recruit is warm bodies. And I kind of think of it as like in the beginning, it's it reminds me a lot of Despicable Me, where it's like grew in the minions. Right. And it's like you have a thousand minions, and you're probably gonna have to have a thousand minions because you have a lot of people that don't know what they're doing, and they just listen and be like, Yes, sir, I'll yes, ma'am, I'll do whatever you want me to do. But as you start getting this, you have people, and he's saying, You're wrong, you don't know what you're talking about. Or is it, wait, wait, wait, I have people on my team that that's probably the right answer. I just don't feel like I can pull it off. And that goes into the identity shift of like, oh, wait, wait, wait, this is exiting out of my comfort zone now. Yeah. And and and now it is the idea of they're not just telling me uh the right answer and I don't have the right answer. I don't know if I can pull this off. And and now it's a need of I am reliant on them as well, and that feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

And that's the only way

The shift to leading experts

SPEAKER_01 5:20

that you can actually scale. If you cannot cross over into being a generalist who is a leader of experts, then you can't scale. You just cannot.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Let me I wrote down some thoughts here when I was talking to a guy on this, you know, it's not just one. So I've had this conversation maybe like four times in the last two weeks. So I I think as a leader of experts, this is what you need to know how to do is to communicate. Number one, you got to communicate clearly what you want from them or need from them and why. Now, why is this a big deal? Because I remember when we were building buildings, I'm not an expert at that. I'm talking about not, hey, we're gonna renovate this, but I don't even know how to do that. But I mean, some pastors, they know how to let's nail this and they're gonna be stuffing. All that but not build a whole new building and they shouldn't because they need to pastor, okay? So uh when you're doing that, I remember having to tell those guys, look, here are the two things I want to know. Are we in budget and are we on schedule? Those are the two. Now, why did I make that clear? Because they're gonna be telling me all these other things, and y'all need to discuss that and get that together. And if you need me to make a decision on whether it's gonna be blue or black or whatever, then we can talk about that. And then probably I'm gonna bring other experts in that can answer that because I don't know if it needs to be blue or black. You know, like you get what I'm saying? So I've got to make clear what do I want. In other words, I always say this all the time the experts have a deep well of knowledge and wisdom, deeper than really I need to know all about. But I've got a bucket of what I want to know, and I've got to take my bucket to get

Letting go of the details (and why it matters)

SPEAKER_03 6:55

what I need from them. So I've got to make it clear to them this is what I want to know and why.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

I was gonna say too um that right there is the the level of details to be an expert is so vast, it's so deep, that's why you don't have the physical capacity to be an expert in everything. Right. You could be the expert in buildings, but what if you say yes to that, what else are you saying no to? Correct. Because I am delegating the level of details uh down to the type of screws that we use to make sure that this building's good. I am choosing to not be an expert in that. So that I can't be an expert at staying 30,000 feet and moving the orchestra in the right direction.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

So, how silly would it be from for me to hire you as an expert, but then to treat you like you're not the expert that I am, that that's where my identity is. My identity is not in doing that. My identity in I know what I need from you. Yeah, I want, and I'm gonna hold you responsibility, uh responsible to be the expert. Here's the information I need to know, and I'm going to work us and focus to what to where we want to go. That's number two. Is not only do I need to tell you what I want from you and what I need to know from you and and why, but the second thing is I'm gonna help you work with this person and work with that person because you and I were on a call with about 10 different

How to lead a room full of experts

SPEAKER_03 8:22

experts in their field. Like this was a big, big high-level. You don't even probably know the conversation. We were in the deal, and there's all these guys on the team, pastors and leaders on that team, and they're incredibly strong in what they were doing. But the objective was something that we were leading. And I showed, I told Hunter after one of the deals, I said, Do you notice how smart those people are? But they only know their lane. And so this guy's gonna go forever on his details. This guy's going and they never connect. They're just telling their point of view. Our job on that call, watch what I'm gonna do. I I I have to do this because the one call went forever and it wasn't. I said, This one I'm taking charge. So I told everybody at the beginning, hey, listen, I know that everybody here is an expert. I'm gonna ask you what I need from you, and then I'm gonna go to the next thing, and I want to keep us in and you know what? They actually were relieved and happy that I did it and let it, but the meeting was shorter, that it was more organized, and we got what we needed to get out of it and moving forward. That's what it looks like to be a leader of experts. So, and helping them to work together.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

There definitely is a humble pill that you got to take. I think you got to stop thinking of it as I'm the star player and start thinking of it as I'm the coach with a team, and our team is trying to win a championship.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

That's not as easy a jump as we think sometimes, especially if you're good at stuff, to be able to hand that off and allow someone else to take that role or that that expert lane.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

If you don't make that shift of I'm not the hero, I'm the guide, that is basically leading a team to win the objective. Yeah, then okay, if I'm thinking team-wide, I want the best players on my team. If I'm thinking I don't want any other stars to take the spotlight from me, you get into a whole other rest.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

So it's like this do I want to be the star player? Do I see myself as a star player and I'm trying to get position role players around me to support me to support my star playing? Yeah. Or do I want to become uh a coach player where like I'm playing and coaching, that's a different deal too. That's kind of like that star player says, Well, I want to coach some too, so I'll coach and star play. Or there's gonna be a time that you say, I am now in a better, I am better positioned for us to win, to be the coach and to have star players, and they're gonna shine in their role, but it's only because I'm helping to make it happen. That has to be a shift. It is difficult to do if you have it in your mind that the way is if I'm not dunking, I'm not uh valuable. No, if I'm calling the plays to make it happen, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

What about some specific steps? Are there some steps that a pastor can take when they're recognizing, aha, I've been in this space and I don't want to live like this anymore, and I'm ready to become a leader of experts instead of the.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

If you don't have a counselor, it's gonna be hard for you to make shifts in your mind. If you're not having somebody help you to make those paradigm shifts and to feel secure in what you're doing and to recognize when you're insecure, I need somebody to talk to that's safe to help me to process through what I'm feeling. And because it can feel like I now just I just now brought people on to tell me what to do and to give me feedback, and it's gonna feel like and I've been the one telling everybody what to do. Now I've got all these people telling me what to do. And if you don't understand, no, they're not telling me what to do, they're giving me information. And that information I'm gonna make a decision on. And so I want to hear from them and I want to get their feedback, and then I get to choose the decisions of where we go and what we do. I think that's a huge shift in that. Secondly, if you're not telling them the role you want them to play, what you need from them and why, the information you need and the cadence by how you need to get it, then that's going to be a frustration

The 90-day framework for alignment

SPEAKER_03 12:08

for you. To understand I'm the one who helps them to work together, I'm leading the experts in that way, and I'm making decisions. They're bringing stuff to me to make decisions and assignments to pull it off.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Is there a specific framework that we could encourage pastors to utilize?

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Which our cycle is our 90-day execution period, and then we set up our cycles inside of a cooldown. So we run on cycles and a cooldown. 90-day cycle, 30-day cooldown, 90-day cycle, 30-day cooldown. In the cooldown, we're reviewing the past cycle and planning the next cycle. So inside of that cooldown, I am repainting the expectations of what everything that you're talking about, of these are the standards I want you to maintain in this role, and I want you to crush it with these standards. And these are the projects that we want to accomplish in this next cycle for our next season's work. We call it a win. What is what's important now is the win. So we're defining the win, not only for the departments, we're defining the win for the individuals of saying if we do these five to 10 projects over the next 90 days, we are moving towards the vision of what we're accomplishing.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

And I think you're thinking that that's a great answer for when you're talking about my youth pastor is now the expert of youth. Yeah, my kids pastor is now the expert of kids, the worship leader now can sing and lead and write better than I. And that's that, okay? So that's a that's a level of leading experts on your staff that you're the leader of. I think there's another play that we've got to talk about, and that is the lawyers, the consultants, the the uh building people, the people that aren't your staff execution, but more like a growth team

The 10-80-10 leadership model

SPEAKER_03 13:46

or a project team. And that's probably more like a 1080-10. Yeah. That you've got to say, hey, let's talk clearly what we need uh to do and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

So 1080 10 is not just three numbers, it's the total of a hundred percent of a project. So the leader, uh, which is you in this case, is making sure that we are accomplishing the objective by the given due date. I want to make sure you are the experts here, but I want to make sure that we're getting from here to there within these constraints, basically. So within this budget and within this time frame, right? So the 1080 10 is the first 10% and the last 10% I am heavily involved in. The middle 80 is where the real work gets done, and that's where you as the expert are gonna make it happen, right? So the first 10% we're really painting the picture of what's the why of what why we're doing this, right? What are we uh so you're not just checking the boxes, you understand how I think about this and what I'm really wanting to accomplish. What's the cause here?

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

The second C is the completion, which is the definition of done. What does winning look like? What does a home run look like in my book? And I'm not saying how I want you to get it done. I'm telling you what I want to see happen, and you're the expert of how it should get done, right? Constraint is budget constraints, time constraints, money constraints, all that kind of stuff there.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

But it's in the limits of what's the limits uh even the executive decision making, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah, it it it is the what kind of authority level that you have here. Um also how much staff do you have availability to to, you know, all that kind of stuff, depending on the project. And then lastly, I think the communication updates, which is like how often and and uh in what form do I want to be updated inside of this? That's the first 10%. Last 10% is basically just making it's the quality assurance and upgrading uh, okay, here's what you did in the middle 80. And I want to make sure in the last 10% that we are honing this in to make sure that we really, really, really hit the objective and I can give feedback before the deadline to make sure it lands well.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

I think the the bottom line here is kind of we're closing it up here. I think the bottom line to me is as a pastor, do you want to become the lid to your organization that the only way that you feel comfortable leading is that you are the number one expert in everything and you're gonna be the star player that has uh role players around you? Or are you going to become the coach that equips the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edification of the body of Christ, that you see your now role as a coach to star players, and you're gonna need other coaches around you to help you in doing it. So good.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

I would say, too, as a final thought here, kind of the macro framework that we teach our clients is there's a Venn diagram of three different circles that you need to be uh kind of like the three pillars that you need to have as a high functioning team. There is the coach, there is the system, and there's the players. There's the pastor, there's the system, and there's the team, right? So it's the three circles. The pastor or the coach inside of this is the one that is architecting the system. The system informs the team on what to focus on, right? So the team is highly focused and highly aligned to the plays that the coach is running. If you think about Tom Brady, you think about LeBron James, you think about Usain Bolt, you think about Michael Phelps, they all had a coach. So you want to be having those all-star players on your team, but all of them are looking to a Greg Popovich type of person that is designing a system for the team to work together. You need all three parts. You need a coach to design the system for the team to use. And all of us are using those three circles to be a high-functioning team.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Well, it's basically saying you can't win a championship just being a coach. You got to have players. The coach is gonna go recruit the best players, train them and develop them, not only to become the best they can be, but to work together.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

And leverage the system.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

But then the system is the playbook. Yes. You everybody's got to know where, okay, we're running this play. So that's where they line up, what their assignment is. Are they setting a uh a pick? Are they, you know, who do they block depending on what game we're playing, you know? And and that way they know what their assignment is and can be held accountable to the phone.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Super helpful. So so helpful in helping uh pastors and leaders move from being the expert at everything and moving into a role where you're actually the leader of the experts. Thank you for joining us here today on the Race At Grow Podcast, and we'll see you next time.